Suffolk, County New York District Attorney Timothy Sini appeared Saturday on Fox News to discuss the major international arrests of nearly 100 gang [...]]]>
Suffolk, County New York District Attorney Timothy Sini appeared Saturday on Fox News to discuss the major international arrests of nearly 100 gang leaders and associates:
MS-13 is justly ranked as one of the worst, most bloodthirsty gangs, since a murder is required for membership, and machetes are a traditional weapon for their frequent homicides.
They tend to prey upon their own kind, although not exclusively: Americans who get on their bad side may be killed.
Below, high school friends Nisa Mickens (left) and Kayla Cuevas (right) were hacked to death by MS-13 gangsters using machetes and baseball bats after Cuevas angered some gangsters on social media and Mickens got in the way.
President Trump invited both sets of parents to his 2018 State of the Union speech.
Keep in mind that President Obama knowingly admitted MS-13 gang members to America with his irresponsible policy of open borders to Central Americans. It was totally predictable that when Obama allowed many thousands to Central aliens to escape gang violence in their homelands, the gangsters would accompany them to the US because that’s what always happens: open borders for victims work for perps as well.
In July, 22 MS-13 members were arrested for a series of murders, and 19 were illegal aliens.
Hopefully future presidents will care more for the public safety of Americans than diversity in immigration.
]]>New York DA on historic MS-13 bust: ‘the fight continues’, Fox News, December 21, 2019
Friday’s announcement of the largest-ever MS-13 crackdown is a “huge blow” against the gang but the fight is not over, Suffolk, County New York District Attorney Timothy Sini said Saturday
Appearing on “Fox & Friends: Weekend” with hosts Pete Hegseth and Emily Compagno, Sini confirmed that 96 MS-13 gang members and associates were charged with significant crimes in the historic bust including murder, conspiracy, drug distribution, and assault. The ages of those arrested range from 16 to 59 and include U.S. citizens and illegal immigrants.
The developments come following a two-year investigation involving law enforcement from the local to the federal level in Suffolk County, one of the gangs’ longtime hotbeds.
Sources told the New York Post that most of the arrests were made Thursday and Friday morning.
“And, as a result of intelligence generated throughout the investigation, law enforcement made over 230 arrests throughout the world including in New York, throughout the United States, and in El Salvador,” Sini said. “This was a global operation.”
Throughout the investigation, authorities recovered drugs in gang members’ possession such as cocaine and fentanyl, as well as handguns and more than $200,000 in cash.
Sini said the use of social media analysis was crucial and they obtained wiretaps on over 215 phones.
“And, I have to say: law enforcement did such a tremendous job because, as they were gathering intelligence, they would use that intelligence in real-time to stop acts of violence and they put their lives on the line to stop those acts of violence,” he said.
“This is a huge blow,” Sini stated. “This decimates the leadership on Long Island.”
MS-13, also known as Mara Salvatrucha, recruits young teenagers from El Salvador and Honduras, though many gang members were born in the U.S. The gang has been blamed for dozens of killings since January 2016 across a wide swath of New York’s Long Island – where Suffolk County is — the Los Angeles area and the D.C. suburbs. (Continues)
In earlier mass intrusions, such as during Obama’s big welcome, there were news stories about the financial and other burdens on local [...]]]>
In earlier mass intrusions, such as during Obama’s big welcome, there were news stories about the financial and other burdens on local citizens which was reported here: Lynn, Massachusetts, ‘On the Brink’ from Dumped Illegal Alien Kid Costs and Chelsea Massachusetts Provides Preview of School Strains for Dumped Alien Kids, plus Illegal Alien Kids Stress New York City Schools to show it wasn’t just Massachusetts getting hit in 2014.
Here is a little detail about the costs from that time:
Educating backward children from the Third World is an expensive project. One example is Lynn Massachusetts, where the mayor had to rejigger the entire budget by reducing funds to city departments to pay for the extra costs of 600 illegal kids. Those needs include free food, tutors, Spanish-speaking teachers, psychological counseling and healthcare. Some of the little aliens don’t even understand Spanish but were raised speaking indigenous languages like Kanjobal or Ixil. Some have never attended school at all.
And remember — either taxes are increased to support the needy non-English speakers or government services for citizens are cut.
Back to news coverage, illegal alien cost stories are curiously rare compared to a few years ago. Is the press reticent because its pals the Democrats support the open borders funneling in thousands of illegal kiddies? It is odd.
Here’s a story from Long Island, far from the border. (Video does not work on all browsers).
]]>7 On Your Side Investigates: Long Island district struggles to serve surge in migrant students, ABC7 New York, March 29, 2019
RIVERHEAD, Long Island (WABC) — For Mrs. Pamela Joyce, a school counselor in the Riverhead Central School District, each day brings more to do than she could ever fit into 24 hours.
She describes working weekends, staying late, and coming to school early, in the hopes of reaching the hundreds of kids she serves between the district’s high school and middle school.
Joyce is the district’s only bilingual school counselor for the high school and middle school. She’s also the only counselor the district has added in the last decade despite a quickly climbing student population.
She splits her time between both campuses and often encounters kids with little to no understanding of the U.S. education system.
“To be the kid in the foreign country who didn’t have shoes, who moved here and their life is so different, every day there is something to catch up on,” Joyce said.
Joyce serves students considered English language learners.
Eyewitness News attended a group session as Joyce prepared 8th graders for high school.
Joyce said there are many kids she just can’t reach because she doesn’t have the time.
“I actually have four new students to schedule this week,” Joyce said, “so they don’t stop coming.”
“We have not kept up,” added Superintendent Dr. Aurelia Henriquez who said hospitalizations for mental health issues and other behavioral concerns have climbed as the district struggles to reach its kids.
“We can’t implement the programs and the staff that we know our children and our district needs,” Henriquez said.
The district has one of the highest rates of agricultural migrant students in New York.
In Riverhead, the number of kids who don’t have a good grasp of English has more than doubled over the past five years, outpacing the state and county averages according to New York State Education Department enrollment data.
However, state funding hasn’t kept up with the district’s increasing needs.
Instead, the state has shortchanged Riverhead by nearly $25 million in funding known as Foundation Aid in an effort to save money.
The New York legislature created the Foundation Aid formula over a decade ago in an effort to increase equity in schools across New York by sending more money to needy districts, but it has repeatedly failed to entirely follow that formula or fully fund it in an effort to save money, leaving many districts with a fraction of their needs. (Continues)
President Trump invited parents of illegal alien crime [...]]]>
President Trump invited parents of illegal alien crime victims to his State of the Union speech, including Evelyn and her husband Freddy.
Rep. Peter King, whose district includes Long Island, was on his way to a memorial and arrived at a crime scene:
Remember that President Obama knowingly admitted MS-13 gang members to America with his reckless policy of open borders to Central American aliens. It was totally predictable that when Obama allowed many thousands to Centrals to escape gang violence in their homelands, the gangsters would accompany them to the US. As a result, there are an estimated 10,000 MS-13 gangsters in the US according to a 2017 Justice Department fact sheet.
]]>Woman who fatally hit mom of MS-13 victim was allegedly trashing memorial site, New York Post, September 15, 2018
An irate Long Island woman who fatally struck the grieving mother of an MS-13 victim sparked the deadly confrontation by trashing a memorial for the dead teen, the mom’s friends told The Post on Saturday.
The mother, Evelyn Rodriguez, who attended President Trump’s State of the Union Address earlier this year to bring attention to the slaying of her 16-year-old daughter, Kayla Cuevas, and Cuevas’ friend, Nisa Mickens, 15, was setting up flowers, balloons and photos on Ray Court in Brentwood for a vigil to mark the second anniversary of Cuevas’ death. The girls’ bodies were found in a nearby wooded area.
The angry woman, who has not been arrested or identified by authorities, had been trying for months to sell the vacant home adjacent to the memorial, and apparently blamed mourners who frequented the area for her inability to unload the property, mourners claimed.
She popped balloons, stole photos of the dead teen, dismantled a table, grabbed votive candles and threw the whole lot in the back of her white SUV, pals of Cuevas’ family said.
Rodriguez, 50, and her husband, Freddy, confronted the woman in an attempt to get back their property, the friends said. But instead, the woman tried to drive away and ended up hitting Rodriguez, police said.
The woman, who could not be reached for comment, stayed at the scene and called 911, said Suffolk County cops.
“They were just trying to retrieve their daughter’s picture, that’s what happened,” said family friend Noel Vega, 41. “How can somebody be so malicious and hostile over a memorial? On the anniversary of the day they found her dead daughter back in those woods. It’s bulls–t.” (Continues)
He began by denouncing Vox.com for supporting the ultra-violent MS-13 gang by “portraying the gang as a bunch [...]]]>
He began by denouncing Vox.com for supporting the ultra-violent MS-13 gang by “portraying the gang as a bunch of cute teenagers who ride bikes, listen to music and work after-school jobs” when nothing could be further from the truth. He then interviewed the Suffolk Country District Attorney Timothy Sini whose Long Island community has been terrorized by the gang, suffering 17 homicides in 16 months over 2016-17.
Below, violent MS-13 gangsters were admitted in large numbers during Obama’s open borders welcome to Central American illegal aliens.
Steyn then remarked, “America remains in the grips of an immigration crisis in other aspects too, with one of the two major parties increasingly promoting policies indistinguishable from full-blown open borders. Any effort to enforce the country’s border invites accusations of racism even though Mexico is actually deporting more people who come from Honduras than the United States does.”
The next interview was Enrique Acevedo, an anchor at Mexico’s Univision network.
As an opening volley, Steyn queried, “Enrique, this is interesting to me that Mexico is allowed to deport Hondurans without being accused of being racist while the US is, and why does one country get to enforce its borders but another doesn’t?”
The conversation moved along to the big question about the intrinsic worth of immigration, i.e. whether it is beneficial or harmful:
ACEVEDO: We could have a larger debate on the benefits of immigration: I would ask you what is so wrong about immigration? How’s immigration hurting the US, or how is this different to other immigration throughout history?
STEYN: It’s predicted that 30 percent of the world’s jobs are going to going to be outmoded by automation and robots, so nobody needs, no developed nation needs mass immigration these days.
Perfect — Steyn gives the correct, 21st century answer, that automation makes immigration obsolete! It’s nice to see an informed remark on television about the technological future.
There’s more in the video, but the automation mention was definitely the high point.
Spare Audio:
]]>Never forget that the Obama Administration Knowingly Admitted MS-13 Gangsters to America because open borders were a big thing for his administration.
The resulting gang [...]]]>
Never forget that the Obama Administration Knowingly Admitted MS-13 Gangsters to America because open borders were a big thing for his administration.
The resulting gang explosion has caused preventable crime including murders in areas where the MS-13 killers reside, and endangering American kids in schools that the gangsters attend.
President Trump invited parents of illegal alien crime victims to his first State of the Union speech, giving special attention to the MS-13 murder victims.
Tucker Carlson has been following the MS-13 problem, even visiting El Salvador last year, and he recently interviewed a top cop about the escalation. The gang’s message is they intend to murder police — “just like in El Salvador.”
This is where open borders have gotten America.
]]>TUCKER CARLSON: Meanwhile MS-13 has been terrorizing ordinary people — mostly immigrants, by the way — in this country for years. It’s the deadliest gang in America and it seems to be turning its sights against American law enforcement. That’s not our take, that’s what they’re saying in recent weeks.
Long Island police have arrested several gang members and according to informants, leaders are telling their foot soldiers quote “it is time to take the streets back and shoot a cop like we do in El Salvador.”
They shoot a lot of cops in El Salvador: they run the country.
Patrick Ryder is commissioner of the Nassau County Police Department; he joins us tonight. So our understanding of MS-13 is up until now they’ve committed a lot of crimes, a number of high-profile killings, but mostly they haven’t targeted law enforcement. You think that’s changing
PARICK RYDER: Well we got our threat last Wednesday: they decided that they were going to put out notice to foot soldiers that you were going to take a cop’s life — just like they do in El Salvador.
CARLSON: So why the change?
RYDER: They don’t like the fact that we’ve increased our enforcement. We’re going after the MS-13 and all our gangs out here in Long Island. So from the increased enforcement, they decided they were going to act back. Well in return, we’re gonna act back.
CARLSON: Where are these people coming from?
RYDER: Most of them are crossing from the borders of both Mexico and Texas. They find their way up into the New York area where there is work for most migrant workers, but again those who don’t join the gangs, they get threatened by the gangs to join them, and they go after the young kids and try to flip them.
(Continues)
In April, he traveled to Long Island which has suffered from worsened gang crime, exacerbated [...]]]>
In April, he traveled to Long Island which has suffered from worsened gang crime, exacerbated by Obama’s active encouragement of Central Americans to enter the US illegally.
Long Island had recently seen an uptick in an ongoing street war with MS-13 gangsters playing a major role, capped on April 12 by the discovery of four butchered bodies in a Central Islip park. So the AG came to the community and pledged to bring the power of the federal government to bear on the brutal Salvadoran gang.
Below, illegal alien MS-13 members were arrested for the murder of high school girls Nisa Mickens and Kayla Cuevas in September 2016.
How violent is MS-13? At the end of the CBS report below, the reporter said her cameraman wore a vest and she stayed “in safer territory” during the arrests.
Given that violent history, it’s odd that CBS regards law enforcement applied to MS-13 foreign gangsters as “controversial.”
]]>Inside ICE’s controversial crackdown on MS-13, CBS News, November 16, 2017
First on “CBS This Morning,” we’re getting rare access to Operation Matador, a joint law enforcement effort led by the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s (ICE) Homeland Security Investigations team, to crackdown on MS-13, or Mara Salvatrucha, and other trans-national gangs.
Federal officials will announce Thursday a breakthrough in the fight against MS-13, a gang from El Salvador. Hundreds of accused gang members and associates are under arrest, but its violence is spreading in American neighborhoods.
CBS News correspondent Margaret Brennan went to one of the deadliest battlegrounds, Long Island, New York. They’ve made 345 arrests on Long Island and in the surrounding New York City area since May.
The target of the pre-dawn raid was a suspected member of MS-13 who had illegally entered the U.S. The team of 12 immigration agents and local police expected the 20-year-old suspect to be armed.
“He entered the country illegally so – and then he went through the immigration process and a judge ordered him removed,” said Jason Molina, assistant special agent in charge.
“We know he’s an MS-13 member?” Brennan said.
“Yes. We have information, we have pictures of him actually flashing gang signs,” Molina said. But gang membership is not a crime, and the agents did not have a criminal warrant. They only weapons they found were “either pellet guns or BB guns,” Molina said.
But Molina’s team was still able to make the arrest based on the suspect’s immigration status – part of the unique mandate of the Homeland Security investigations unit of ICE. An hour later, they nabbed a second suspect. Molina said he is an MS-13 associate.
“So his known crime is entering the country illegally?” Brennan asked.
“Correct,” Molina said.
“But that’s it at this point, that’s all you definitely know?” Brennan asked.
“That’s correct. The purpose of classifying him as a gang member or a gang associate is because once he goes in front of an immigration judge, we don’t want him to get bail, because the whole point of this operation is to get these known gang members off the street,” Molina said.
(Continues)
Judge Jeanine Pirro appeared on Fox News following a quadruple murder by the gang a few weeks ago, describing how they got here: “If you recall they came into this country in 2014 under the Obama administration policy of allowing in those from Central America — El Salvador, Honduras and Guatemala. I was one of those people saying look, as a DA, MS-13 is from El Salvador; they are without a doubt the most violent gang where initiation involves beating someone to death in front of others. . . They’re in your school, folks, they are in with your children in school.”
It was predictable at the time that when Obama opened the borders to Central Americans escaping gang violence that the gangsters would come right along with them. Why wouldn’t MS-13 and others take advantage of such an opportunity? Anyway, when the government admits an ethnic or national group, the whole diversity package is included.
Below, two MS-13 gangsters brought to America by permissive immigration policies.
An AP story described the terror in the schools that MS-13 diversity has created:
]]>MS-13 street gang grips Long Island suburbs in violence, Associated Press, April 28, 2017
Late at night, when helicopters thrum overhead and spotlights beam down onto lawns, many people here know exactly what’s going on.
“You just think, ‘Oh, God, whose child is it now?'” said Stephanie Spezia, a longtime resident of this suburb in the heart of Long Island that’s caught in the grip of a violent street gang with Central American ties, MS-13.
MS-13 has been blamed for a trail of 11 corpses of mostly young people discovered in woods and vacant lots in Brentwood and neighboring Central Islip since the start of the school year.
The bloodshed in the blue-collar towns has gotten the attention of President Donald Trump, who says it’s the result of lax immigration policies that let too many criminal “scum” slip through.
Attorney General Jeff Sessions on Friday gave a speech about the violence to law enforcement officials near a park where the bodies of four young men were found this month bearing MS-13’s hallmarks: repeated slashes from a blade that left them nearly unrecognizable.
Some parents say they’re afraid to let their children go to school. Teens say any perceived slight to a gang member, especially a refusal to join, can mean death.
After one high school warned parents not to let their kids wear anything gang-affiliated, gang members started deciding on a daily basis what colors were off-limits, leaving students to guess what not to wear.
“Kids are losing their childhoods,” said Jennifer Suarez, whose 15-year-old niece was beaten and hacked to death last year. “You can see the stress on their faces as they get ready. It’s like, you know, they’re suiting up for battle.”
So how does a street gang with ties to Central America gain such an aggressive foothold in the suburbs of Long Island?
MS-13, or the Mara Salvatrucha, is believed by federal prosecutors to have thousands of members across the U.S., primarily immigrants from Central America. It has a stronghold in Los Angeles, where it emerged in the 1980s as a neighborhood street gang.
But its true rise began after members were deported back to El Salvador in the 1990s. There, the gang thrived and spread to Honduras. MS-13 and rival groups there now control entire towns, rape girls and young women, massacre students, bus drivers and merchants who refuse to pay extortion and kill competitors.
That violence has prompted a migration of people trying to escape, especially children, who have streamed north because of a U.S. policy allowing people under 18 who arrive without parents to stay in the country temporarily with relatives or friends.
Since the fall of 2013, the U.S. has placed 165,000 unaccompanied minors. Long Island has been a frequent landing spot. Suffolk County, which includes Brentwood and Central Islip, has gotten 4,500. Neighboring Nassau County has received 3,800.
Sessions, speaking at a courthouse in Central Islip, said he believes gang members used this system to come north, too.
“Bad guys know how the system works, and they have exploited it,” he said.
He later met with parents of some of the teenagers killed.
In a recent roundup of 13 MS-13 gang suspects accused of murder and other crimes, seven had entered as unaccompanied minors.
MS-13 is recruiting the unaccompanied children, Suffolk County police Commissioner Timothy Sini said. The youngsters, he said, “don’t have an established social network, at least many of them don’t, and MS-13 is providing that network.”
All told, nearly 200 MS-13 gang suspects have been rounded up since September. Among the tactics Sini has employed have been stepped-up patrols, renewed cooperation with an FBI task force and helicopter sweeps of wooded areas where gang members gather.
Trump, a Republican, has promised to eradicate the gang in the U.S. through strict enforcement of immigration law.
“We are putting MS-13 in jail and getting them the hell out of our country,” he told The Associated Press. “They are a bad group, and somebody said they are as bad as al-Qaida, which is a hell of a reference. … We are out in Long Island cleaning out the MS-13 scum.”
He spoke again about the gang on Friday in an address to the National Rifle Association.
The tough talk has made some residents fearful of law enforcement and the gang. They say it’s not about immigration politics but about making a community safer.
Residents of Brentwood and Central Islip, with a combined population of about 100,000, say the area of modest ranch homes, warehouses and strip malls has always been a diverse, welcoming place for immigrants trying to make better lives for their children.
Some longtime residents say law enforcement bears some of the responsibility for the gang’s rise because it ignored the burgeoning problem for years.
Parents say 4,200-student Brentwood High School lacks the means to help children who are often left alone after school because their parents work long hours. There are few social workers and guidance counselors, they say, and not enough security guards or cameras.
“They can’t walk the halls without fear,” said Evelyn Rodriguez, the mother of 16-year-old Kayla Cuevas, who was found beaten to death last fall.
In the months leading up to Kayla’s death, she was involved in disputes with members and associates of MS-13, prosecutors said. Rodriguez said her daughter stood her ground and ended up dead.
Kayla and her 15-year-old friend Nisa Mickens were walking on a street near their homes when men with baseball bats and a machete attacked them.
Nisa was found dead on a residential tree-lined street a day before her 16th birthday. Kayla, who lived a block away, was discovered in a wooded backyard nearby.
“People, they missed the opportunity to know a really great person,” said Nisa’s father, Rob Mickens, who’s running for the school board to help push for change. “They would have loved to know her.”
Bertha Ullaguari said she noticed her 18-year-old son, Jorge Tigre, going from a good student on track to graduate from Bellport High to someone too afraid to go to school.
Then she got two truancy letters. When she pressed her son, he refused to tell her what was going on.
“Some bad things happened there,” Ullaguari said, her voice trembling.
She had heard he had his tires slashed. There were rumors of gangs.
And then, about two weeks ago while she was driving with her daughter, they got a mysterious call. A girl on the line said Jorge was dead along with three others in a park.
“We nearly killed ourselves from the shock,” said Ullaguari, an Ecuadorean immigrant.
The bodies of Jorge and the three others were found cut, their torsos exposed and hands bound, steps from a playground.
“It could happen to anybody’s child, anywhere,” Evelyn Rodriguez said. “We all need to be aware of this, and we need stand together. Because I don’t want it to be your child.”
Tucker remarked about the presence of so many people protesting the Sessions appearance even though he was there to fight gang violence. Most of the signs available to see online were generic retreads of the same old open-borders crap, probably pulled out of a closet and dusted off.
More appropriate images would be photos of the crime victims, like high school girls Nisa Mickens and Kayla Cuevas brutally murdered by MS-13 gangsters. Otherwise, people might get the idea that open-borders lefties support violent foreign criminals. Perish the thought!
Here’s the interview from Friday:
]]>TUCKER CARLSON: What’s the next step? Simply talking about MS-13 won’t beat them. Tim Sini is Police Commissioner for Suffolk County on Long Island and he joins us tonight. . . Why has MS-13 grown so much in the last 10 years?
TIM SINI: There’s likely a variety of factors: there’s no question that MS-13 preys on the immigrant community. In fact they in particular prey on unaccompanied children who come to this country illegally, then are placed in our communities, and the Suffolk County Police Department working in collaboration with our federal partners is dedicated to decimating this gang.
CARLSON: Are the feds going to help you?
SINI: Absolutely
CARLSON: Okay you’re confident the Attorney General’s announcement today means progress in the fight against MS-13.
SINI: Whenever you have the top law enforcement official in the country come to your community and commit to eradicating a dangerous gang such as MS-13 and then ask local officials how can we help, that’s a good day for your community. We had a very productive discussion today about law enforcement issues, about how the federal government can further assist us in our mission of eradicating MS-13, and several specific requests were discussed, several specific topics were discussed. It was a great meeting. We had the the heads of all the local departments in the room, we had our federal partners there and of course the Attorney General and his team.
CARLSON: Right, so I don’t know how far you are to be totally candid since we’re on TV and you’re still holding office, but it seems like politics is playing a pretty ugly role in all this, and you have protesters by the side of the road accusing the federal government of cracking down on all immigrants when they’re going after one of the most dangerous criminal gangs in the country — does that distort your ability to be able to address this as it as a as a criminal matter?
SINI: There’s no question that politics unfortunately creeps into the discussion of law enforcement, and I benefit from the position of being police commissioner. I don’t have to deal in politics; that’s a good thing for me. I just have to focus on the mission, get the job done. Many of those protesters out there were people who I work with on a daily basis; we have different perspectives about certain things obviously, but these are people who we work with, and the message to them was, look this is the Attorney General of the United States. He’s coming to our community to ask how the federal government can assist in eradicating MS-13 from our community, and we had a very productive session today with all of our law enforcement partners, and I really do believe that something good is going to come out of that meeting.
CARLSON: Does the governor government of El Salvador play any role in this? I think about half of the arrested MS-13 members come from that country; it started there. Apparently it’s controlled at least in part from El Salvador. What’s the government’s role in that?
SINI: No question and this is an important piece and this is why local law enforcement officials throughout the country need to be working with their federal law enforcement partners. We need to fight this battle on all fronts. That includes dealing with certain issues in foreign countries and obviously a local police department, we don’t have the jurisdiction or resources to do that, so we’re going to be working with assets throughout the world to tackle this issue and to deal with it both outside this country and inside this country. And it’s going to take all hands on deck, it’s going to take a multi-faceted approach, and it’s going to take a lot of resources which is why today’s meeting was was so promising because we talked very specifically about what type of resources and a lot of folks had good suggestions and we had a good discussion.
CARLSON: Well good, because when 92 percent of those arrested are from a foreign country and foreign citizens, it’s a foreign threat I would say.